Fr. Roy Bourgeois. Photo credit: Linda Panetta www.opticalrealities.org
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[Editor's Note: This is a second part of a two-part interview. The first interview was published in The Social Edge on July 26, 2007. This new interview includes material unable to go in the first interview, and a second conversation Nicole Sault had with Fr. Roy Bourgeois this past August].
Fr. Roy Bourgeois is a Maryknoll missionary who became an activist for peace after witnessing the violence committed in Latin America by graduates trained in torture and repression at the U.S. Army School of the Americas in Ft. Benning, Georgia. In response he founded SOA Watch to document the atrocities, educate the public, and organize a non-violent grass roots movement to end government funding and shut down the School of the Americas, which was renamed WHINSEC.
Fr. Roy travels internationally, giving talks for schools, churches, and peace groups. His life's work is described in the biography: Disturbing the Peace: The Story of Father Roy Bourgeois and the Movement to Close the School of the Americas by James Hodge and Linda Cooper (Orbis).
Nicole Sault: The American public was shocked to hear that the U.S. military was torturing prisoners in Abu Ghraib, as though it were something startlingly new. What would you say to this?
Fr. Roy Bourgeois: Well, it's not new. It's been a part of U.S. foreign policy for many years. When I was in Vietnam, it was common knowledge that torture was a part of what we were doing there.
I was a young naval officer in Vietnam, and I spoke often with other military officers who actually bragged about how they were forcing information from the POWs, from their prisoners. There were some other military officers at the Officers Club one night. I remember how some of us got upset, because they were just laughing about interrogating the Viet Kong prisoners that they had captured over the Mekong Delta in this helicopter. There might be ten of them and they would ask them questions, and if they didn't answer the questions they gave to them they simply would throw them out of the helicopter. And they thought this was funny! This is torture at work. This is part of U.S. foreign policy that was commonplace. This was well known in Vietnam.
Then when I went to Bolivia as a Catholic priest, I was there for five years, living and working in a slum on the outskirts of La Paz, Bolivia. It was in my third year that I joined a group of clergy and the local people there. We formed an Ecumenical Human Rights Commission, because Bolivia was under a brutal dictator, General Hugo Banzer. He and his thugs, the men with the guns, the military, had come to power under General Banzer through a violent coup, and being supported by my government, the United States.
Fr. Roy Bourgeois. Photo credit: Linda Panetta www.opticalrealities.org
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They were arresting hundreds and hundreds of tin miners, university students, and landless campesinos (farmers). The jails were filled in La Paz and throughout the country. So I as a Catholic priest, and a fellow Jesuit, we were able through the Bishop there to get a pass to go into those jails of La Paz and also the campo (countryside) to visit political prisoners. And what we documented were many, many cases of torture by the Bolivian military that the United States was training and supplying with armaments. Of course this was a crime against humanity. I was able to document this by talking with some of the detainees about how they were being treated, how they were being tortured. We continued in that work in the barrio there, helping educational programs.
But the repression intensified, and it was in my fifth year that I traveled to Washington with documents from our Human Rights commission there in La Paz to visit members of Congress, and to denounce the torture that was going on in Bolivia, which was really known by the U.S. government. We actually [the U.S.] were very complicit in the torture in Bolivia, because we were actually giving military training and arms to those who were at war with the poor in Bolivia. When I returned from my meetings with members of Congress in Washington D.C. I was arrested in Bolivia, because of that, and I was forced out of Bolivia. So let me say that Abu Ghraib is not an aberration. This is not something that's an isolated incident.
I was exposed to another situation of torture close up by this School of the Americas issue. When I was forced out of Bolivia, I later went on to start working on an issue called the School of the Americas that had trained over 50,000 soldiers at the U.S. Army School of the Americas at Ft. Benning, Georgia. Hundreds of these graduates returned to their home countries, especially to Bolivia, to El Salvador, Guatemala, to Chile during the years of Pinochet, and they committed acts of torture, massacres, rape, disappearances of so many people, when they returned to their home countries. What we learned at this school: Torture was a part of the curriculum.
Front page of The Washington Post September of 1996: These manuals were exposed. They had actually discovered at the U.S. Army School of the Americas, manuals that advocated torture. That got the school in big trouble. That really got the attention of many members of Congress.
Our movement that began just with a small group had now grown by the thousands. Many people in the United States were now learning about this U.S. Army School of the Americas, known as the School of Assassins, a School for torture.
Word began to spread. The movement has since grown to thousands. Every November we gather at the main gate, in the name of peace. So many people --I would say the majority-- are people of faith, coming here, often seen as a pilgrimage. It's their faith that would bring college students, senior citizens, parents with their children, a lot of nuns and clergy. We gather here each November at the main gate to try and close this school that causes suffering and death in our name, in these countries of Latin America, that has provided the muscle for U.S. foreign policy, and to also make a connection to torture.
So in response to your question, Abu Ghraib is not an isolated incident. We have seen it at this U.S. Army School of the Americas at Ft. Benning. I have seen it in Bolivia, as a part of U.S. foreign policy, and I saw it there in Vietnam as a young officer in the military.
NS: You have a special connection to children. Where does that come from and how does that touch upon the heart of your work?
FRB: You know priests can't marry, and I've always kind of missed having children. They're so precious. I have a brother, two sisters, and so many nieces and nephews. Children have been a very big part of my life when I was growing up in this little town, in my own family and in the families of friends. I don't know what we would do without children.
But the experience in Vietnam was a powerful one in that the children at the orphanage were so victimized. They were so beautiful and innocent, and yet these beautiful children were made to suffer because of the hatred and madness and ignorance of adults. And that's the way it always works --grown men, adults who can't come to the table and learn diplomacy and how to reconcile. So they go to war. Not "they," no, no, no. They send others to go to war.
Of course in Vietnam over 2 million died. Just so many children. And Iraq, over 500,000. They say over 90 percent of those killed are civilians. I do know for a fact that many of the children in the families that we visited when we went to Iraq on our delegation just before the invasion --they're dead. They have been killed. I feel that at some point we ought to bring the architects of the war to trial, for their crimes against humanity. What war becomes is legalized murder. They can get away with it.
But coming back to the children-they are the most precious, they are the most innocent, and they die and suffer because of our arrogance, and our ignorance, our hatred. Can we learn something from Iraq? Did we learn something from Vietnam? Very little, if anything.
But I think we need children to keep us honest. We're living in a world now where I hear people say that "we've gotta be aggressive," and "we've gotta go to these countries and really exert our military power," and that's an attitude I hear by many in the United States. When I hear that, I think of the children. Because they will be the victims.
Our country has never had more powerful weapons before, but never before have we been less secure. Certainly we should have learned by now that the answer is not weapons, the answer is not war. And if we don't learn how to come to the table and negotiate, if we don't start learning more about Islam, and how we can connect to these countries in the Middle East and in other countries, there's not going to be much hope. The victims will be the precious, the very innocent, and the very beautiful children. There will be many, many who will be dying in our country and in other countries.
I think of the children a lot because of the way the United States is going. I'm trying to hold on to hope, and what makes me hold onto my hope, of course, is speaking out and working for peace. I do believe that we can save our planet, but the only way we're going to save it from the madness of the warmongers is we have to unite and really, really work hard for peace. If we leave it to George Bush and other leaders there's not going to be hope. I do get angry when I think about the warmongers, those who declare the wars and who will not fight in them or die in them, nor will their children. I get angry because I think this is very cowardly.
But what I have to watch is that we cannot let our anger consume us, especially as people of faith. We've got to hold on to our hope and our joy. What's attracting people to our SOA Watch movement, and it continues to grow, is not the anger. Most people I know today are really seeking hope --we're searching for hope. And they see in our movement a way for finding hope. They come here in November by the thousands, from all over the country, young and old. What they find here are kindred spirits who like them, want peace, who like them, want to integrate in their faith journey actions, and they want joy in their lives. What we are discovering in our movement, and it connects to the anti-war movement, is that we find hope and joy when we work for peace, when we speak out against war.
NS: In May the U.S. Congress held their annual vote on funding the U.S. Army School of the Americas in Ft. Benning, Georgia. This year the vote was as close as it has ever been, only six votes short of closing down the school. How did you feel, coming so close?
FRB: Of course we wanted a win. We thought this is our year, and it was a disappointment, having worked so hard in our lobbying efforts, making thousands of calls and emails. But at the same time we were very happy that we came so close, and meeting with Congressman Jim McGovern, we were also energized to know that he felt the same way. He was upset that some of his colleagues at the very end buckled or gave in to the pressure put on them by the Pentagon. Members of Congress who had been with us for many votes in the past, at the eleventh hour just switched their votes. Exactly why we don't know. Congressman McGovern, the main sponsor of the bill, and his colleagues, and our movement, we feel that we're getting very close. The vote has really energized the movement, and so we are going to continue, we're going to keep our hands on the plow.
There's going to be an upcoming vote before long and we do believe that this next time we can put the final nail in the coffin, and close down a military school that has caused untold suffering and death in Latin America, all financed with U.S. taxpayer money.
NS: Some people have said that even if the School of the Americas closes, that it will just re-open in Panama or elsewhere, and that there are mercenary training centers, such as Blackwater USA, that use similar tactics. What would you say to this?
FRB: Well we have asked that question, and over the last two years a delegation representing the SOA Watch movement has visited 14 countries and met with government leaders, indigenous leaders, human rights activists, and what we found in so many of these countries is a sea change taking place in Latin America. Many countries that have been dominated by the U.S. are now distancing themselves from what they refer to as "el Imperio," the Empire of the United States. So countries such as Bolivia, Chile, Argentina, and Ecuador are sidelining their militaries and in no way would allow this school with the name "School of Assassins," well known as the "School of Dictators," to come into their countries and operate. The people and their leaders, university students, human rights leaders, would not allow this to happen. So while it's a valid question, we don't see this happening.
There are other training facilities like at Ft. Bragg, in North Carolina, where we do train soldiers --for example-- from Columbia. But it's not like the school at Ft. Benning called WHINSEC (Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation). There at Ft. Bragg and other places they might bring in a small group, let's say from Colombia, for two months' intense training, and it's hard to monitor that kind of training. This school [at Ft. Benning] has been the flagship of combat military schools that train Latin American soldiers. It's been around since the 1940s. It's trained over 65,000 soldiers from 18 countries of Latin America. That has been the reason we have focused on this school.
One other thing I should add is that we want to close the school because of its past history. It has provided in Latin America the muscle for U.S. foreign policy. It has over the years protected the economic interests of these large corporations and the wealthy elite of these countries who have exploited the natural resources and the poor.
When we close this school, the struggle continues because what we really are after is to change U.S. foreign policy in Latin America. Our foreign policy, we have learned as we travel to these countries, is nothing to be proud of. People are very aware of what we have done, especially to the poor, so a more challenging task is to change U.S. foreign policy in these countries.
NS: I have heard people complain that the youth of today are self-centered and materialistic, that they do not care about what is happening around the world. But you have said the youth give you hope. What makes you say this?
FRB: It's from my own personal experience. I feel honored, and it's a blessing to be able to go into lots of high schools and colleges --this is what I've been doing now for some years. We started in the early days of our movement with older folks, people like myself who had worked in countries like Bolivia, who had been to El Salvador. We had Vietnam veterans, we had a lot of Catholic nuns who came on board early on, who had worked in Latin America and saw firsthand our foreign policy at work in Latin America, and the brutality of the militaries in these countries.
But something happened as word began to spread around the country about this school here at Ft. Benning that was causing so much oppression, so much suffering and death, involved in torture throughout Latin America. People began to respond, and we noticed a few years ago how many college and university students began to come here in November to be present, to join the others who were coming from around the country to express solidarity with the people of Latin America, and to call for the closing of the School that again was paid for by our taxes.
This last November we had over 22,000 who gathered. A little over half were students --university students, college students, and also quite a few high school students. I find this very encouraging, as I travel around giving talks, getting invitations from students and professors to address this issue on their campuses at universities or high schools, to be with students and see how they respond when they learn what's going on. This compassion that often is dormant in our lives --it just surfaces.
Many of us simply are not aware. We're very ignorant of what our country's foreign policy is really doing to others, whether that be in Latin America or in Iraq. But when we get this knowledge, this awareness, when we break down that ignorance something happens as human beings --we have compassion, we have a conscience, we have feelings, we have a heart.
What I see in so many instances with the students --they really come alive. They simply say: "This is wrong, this is a crime against people, a crime against humanity." And they want to do something about it. It's not just an academic issue. They feel "Gee whiz, I want to connect with this issue. There's something I can do! " Many begin to talk with others about it. They begin to get resources available through SOA Watch that they share with others, whether that be a DVD or a book or a newsletter. They check out our web site: soaw.org. They say: "I want to put my feet down at the main gate of Ft. Benning where the School is located, and I want to join my voice with the thousands who gather each year in November to say that this school should be shut down."
I'm sure that there are in our country, as in every country, young people and older people who simply are apathetic, who don't care or who are not connected to the suffering poor or to their country's foreign policy. But the people that I'm privileged to meet these last few years have given me great hope.
In a way the youth have become the backbone of our movement. As I and others get older it's a very good feeling to know that the baton is being passed on to others that they will continue in the struggle for peace and justice. So I am very encouraged. In a real way my hope is being sustained.
I'm often asked in my talks: "You've been at this for a lot of years, working for peace and justice. What sustains you? How do you hold on to your hope?" A lot of people somehow despair. They get cynical. They burn out. What I'm very conscious of and grateful for is [that] I meet a lot of young people --students in high schools and colleges-- who give me hope because I see that they care about other people. They really care about our country's foreign policy. They are not apathetic. They are not cynical. They want to be peacemakers in our world. So that gives me a lot of hope.
NS: It's a beautiful image to think of putting their feet at the gates to embody their beliefs. What was it that the high school student in Costa Rica said to you?
FRB: She said: "I really heard the message you brought. It touched my heart deeply. Remember my face," she said, "because I'm going to commit my life to the poor." That was so moving. I'd never heard that before, expressed that way. That contributes to this joy that I feel, this hope that I feel.
Last night we had a conference call --we had our council members who represent the movement around the country, and we talked about our visits to Costa Rica and to other countries and the basic question: Are we going to continue with our Latin American initiative? We've visited 14 different countries, and after these meetings with government leaders, and university leaders, indigenous leaders, human rights activists, we have gotten four of these countries to sever their ties with the school-- Venezuela, Argentina, Uruguay, and Costa Rica. That has energized our movement. So everyone overwhelmingly felt that we have to continue.
So we will be going to Brazil. We're going to be going to the Dominican Republic, which also has troops at this school. We're going to Paraguay, we have never been there yet. We're going to return to Bolivia to meet with President Evo Morales, because he said that he would pull out their troops on a gradual basis, and we met with many human rights groups there, especially indigenous leaders in La Paz, Bolivia. We also want to return to Nicaragua. So we have got work cut out for us.
We feel that the Latin American initiative means reaching out, going to Latin America to meet with their human rights leaders and government leaders, to simply let them know that here in the United States there are many people who have gone to prison-- over 200 here have gone to prison in support of them, in solidarity with their efforts to bring about more peace and justice in their countries. So last night was just a real good conference call of our leaders in the movement.
I feel especially good today that we're on course. The movement is still very energized. This thing we call hope is still very alive in our movement. We were talking last night about the logistics of November, because there will be so many people, more people than last year gathering, putting our feet at the gate of Ft. Benning. There will be many students, some who have been here in the past, some coming for the first time, and people coming in from all over Latin America, and most coming from the U.S. So it's a time to be grateful and a time of hope.
Dr. Nicole Sault is an anthropologist who works with indigenous peoples and farmers in Mexico and Costa Rica, doing research on godmothers as mediators for peace and habitat protection for people and birds.
Currently Dr. Sault teaches at Santa Clara University in California. Her publications include: Many Mirrors: Body Image and Social Relations (1994 Rutgers University Press). www.sallyglean.org/sault/
All Photo Credits: Linda Panetta www.opticalrealities.org
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